A Proposal to Move Joomla Forward

Steve,

I remember that 18 months ago, I was just getting into Joomla and the GPL decision (on extensions) was a big concern for me. Joomla seemed to fit my needs more than Drupal or Wordpress at the time, and the great extensions available for Joomla was a large part of that. I didn't want to get into something like Joomla that was going to have major conflict moving forward.

Today, Joomla still meets my needs and my client's needs the best, but I still haven't seen a great example of a GPL business model.

I know you did a series of interviews with big-name Joomla-ites at the time, and I know people like Eddie Andrews have tried some new things business wise.

It would be interesting to hear from people that have changed their business model due to this decision, and how they're cash flow has changed (for better or for worse).

To be clear, I'm not sure where I fall on this issue. I understand both sides and why they want what they want, but I haven't gotten my brain around it yet. I know this can be a heated topic, so here's to hoping this thread doesn't blow up!

Thanks for the link to my proposal for a "Built for Joomla" mark.

I just have two comments
1. Whilst expanding the board of OSM is definitely a positive step it is worth remembering that officialy OSM only exists to serve the wishes of the Core Team and does not exist to run the Joomla Project.

2. As for GPL my only comment is that the decision for all other Open Source licences to be rejected. I still don't see the argument for this either legaly or moraly and definitely not historicaly. Remember it is OpenSourceMatters Inc and not GPLMatters Inc.

Few days before Xmas, there were 4223 extensions in the JED. Next day were 4200, and now are 4180 extensions... how can you explain that? :(

I've been seeing lots of folks requesting a new 3rd party directory and looking for a place that will keep 1.0.x extensions and 1.0/1.5 commercial or non-gpl extensions. By pure coincidence, we've just got our CMS Market to the point where we're ready for authors http://www.cmsmarket.com/

This is self promotion of course, but I just want everyone to know there is a place to list your hard work. We've always been frustrated that there was no place to list our templates (other than Best of Joomla).

We also offer the ability to sell commercial or distribute free items for those who don't have their own site or are looking for an additional pipeline.

Best,
-Kyle

I am not certain what I think of the specifics of your proposal, Steve, but, I do want to say that I appreciate your continued work to always consider broader and varied perspectives. I think you have uniquely played that role for us for awhile and it is appreciated.

Interesting thoughts Steve.

Our current board consists of:
Lorenzo Garcia
- JED Editor

Dave Huelsmann
- Treasurer
- Global Moderator

Wilco Jansen
- Development Coordinator

Ryan Ozimek
- Third Party Developer

Wendy Robinson
- Global Moderator

Rob Schley
- Third Party Developer (Assume that is what you mean by JED developer)

James Vasile
- Legal adviser with strong expertise in software licensing laws.
- Sits on the board of the Gnome project (maybe others).

Elin Waring
- Forum moderator

So from your list:
1. Three members of the core team.
None.

2. Three community members (forum mods, JED, translators etc.)
Taken care of.

3. One treasurer / financial adviser responsible for publishing detailed annual accounts on joomla.org
Taken care of, though I think the reports are still being worked on (not sure).

4. One legal adviser with strong expertise in software licensing laws
Taken care of.

5. One JED developer.
Taken care of.

6. One board member of another open source project
Taken care of.

Not too bad already... Interesting that a couple of years ago most people had never heard of most of those people :) Certainly ideas worth thinking about all around.

- Louis

Steve -

What problem are you hoping this would solve?

I see conflict in our community specific to licensing. From my perspective, that decision is behind us and I do not ever want to go through anything remotely like that again. I'll release code with community guidelines in mind. If it doesn't work for me, I'll do something else, but I accept the guidelines set forth.

The fact is copyright holders decide licensing and any one who contributed code that is now part of Joomla! can enforce the terms of the license. That isn't something an appointed or elected board gets to decide. Even if a code base is forked, the copyright holders rights are not diminished in the slightest.

I think it's really important to remember that.

We have horrible factions in our community. Is that the problem you hope a new governance model could address? And if so, can we accept the licensing guidelines and work together on improving the project and code base and increasing involvement needed to keep central operations working?

That kind of movement I can really support. I would welcome anything that helped our community heal. Frankly, we can begin that now with anyone who is willing to join in - you will be welcomed. Steve can help connect you to Joomla org - I can help connect you. I encourage anyone doing business with Joomla! to contribute to the project - get on the bug squad - start writing docs - answer questions in the forums. Be a part of the working community.

I'm very optimistic about the project's future and hope we can build a more enjoyable community. I want to move on and put away those difficulties we have had in the past and leave them there. I think most people feel that way.

Steve,

Those are some interesting ideas although I'm not sure I fully understand what you are trying to achieve by structuring the OSM board in that way. For the last 6 months or so, there have been no Core Team members on the board... that might not be common knowledge though. So, technically speaking, the board is 7 community members and a legal adviser. The community members fill in the legally required position of a board: secretary, treasurer, and president.

I imagine the goal of adding an outside extension developer to the board is to increase the developer communities' voice within OSM and that is a noble goal but I'm not sure how feasible it is. For example, how do you have a community of several hundreds to a thousand people of loose organization and even looser association hold an election? How do you determine who is eligible to vote? For this to be possible, you would need some sort of association and I personally don't think the JCD-A is inclusive enough in nature to fit that purpose. I've wanted to create an "Association of Joomla Professionals" for some time but I've yet to find enough time to make it a reality. We can talk more about that later if you want.

What is your thought process for having a member of another OS project become a member of OSM? I can imagine several ways in which that could be helpful but I don't know if your thinking is the same as mine.

Lastly, why do you have different members serve different term lengths?

I don't want to start a debate about OSM here... I'm just curious about your ideas.

I was curious as to the different length of service as well.

Other open source projects have a more open election process that might be worth investigating

assuage - I had to look that one up

1. To make (something burdensome or painful) less intense or severe: assuage her grief. See synonyms at relieve.
2. To satisfy or appease (hunger or thirst, for example).
3. To pacify or calm: assuage their chronic insecurity.

Thanks, I think that helped clear things up. So, correct me if I am wrong but it seems the root of your proposal for OSM is about transparency and not so much around actual structure.

I can definitely understand the sentiment although I'm not sure that the election process is the place to focus on transparency. If it were as simple as having bodies, it would be easy but there is more to it than that. I mean, to start, we try to have at least 3 people in New York state for legal reasons. Additionally, as with all boards, you need people with specific skill-sets to help you achieve your goals. This goes way beyond just having a treasurer and a lawyer. For example, we might want someone who has experience with large scale event coordination or with developing certification programs. These are not things that just anyone can do so we have to search for these people. Sometimes we can find someone within the community and sometimes we can't.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

I can definitely understand the sentiment although I'm not sure that the election process is the place to focus on transparency.

You're probably right there but if OSM communicated with the community more often it would probably help. A good example would be annual public (summary) reporting on expenditure (not just budgeting) or the status of the 501c3 applicartion. I know that alot of companies have been extremely reluctant to donate without that information. (although the subject of donations is irrelavant now anyway)

The "black box" opens up with participation. As with any community or group setting, rolling up your sleeves and becoming a part of the solution is the only way to impact positive change. There's just no better way.

It is certainly true that J! can and should improve in the area of transparency and communication. I have shared some of my own concerns within the project.

We also have to get the message out to people that their involvement is welcome and is the best way of helping direct the project in a manner of their choosing. We need to broaden the circle and encourage others to bring in new ideas and enthusiasm.

I think having you on the OSM might help address some of the trust issues you are getting at. Personally, I think you'd be an excellent addition.

How many people really believe in this "unconditional support" idea I see some members of Joomla tout? Sure, there are some who are satisfied and this works for them. But seriously. How many people who aren't retired or with bills to pay, who really don't want something in return? (if nothing but some inclusion on decision making).

Like the US economy, I think open source has to figure out it's place in reality. Keeping it 100% "free" is just not sustainable (different problem as US...). What attracted me to open source in the beginning was not so much free, but the idea of an economy other than just pure money: Take but give something back. Bartering, collaborating, support based, etc.

I believe that the ideas of transparency and democracy are key to sustaining this. Without them, I am much less inspired to devote my energy...and I believe the same goes for most would be contributors. I came to Joomla with lots of enthusiasm and have contributed significant time. But because it's been my observation that the opinions of users are not taken very seriously, I have lost my steam.

Somehow I don't see how you can expect to stay proprietary on decision making, while expecting hordes of enthusiastic contributors with no questions asked.

That said, I'm a firm believer that the people who contribute most to the project, should have the biggest say. I think perhaps some voting/democracy could go a long way to demonstrate Joomla's sincerity in including the community.

Lastly, if Joomla does decide to empower its community, don't forget to include all contributors (doc writers, translators, graphic designers, developers, etc.) as equal partners. Without ALL... Joomla would not be Joomla.

Yes, wouldn't it would be nice to see them loosen up a little. I once tried pirate talk, but that didn't seem to do the trick...

At the end of the day, it's just open source. You guys (Joomla) aren't in a race to be billionaires...right? On the other hand, Joomla is smart to do SOMETHING to stem the tide of too much commercialism. But do it in a way so as not to alienate half of your users. What about a public debate before (instead of after) the big decisions? Don't forget that old saying that says if you give an inch, you can take a mile.

There?s a reason why Joomla is not taken very seriously. IMO mainly because of its 3rd party extensions and easy to use back end, right now it?s the best CMS for small to mid-size sites, especially when managed by an end user. But why are graphic designers now going for Wordpress in droves, when Joomla has a better template system? Why won?t (for example) Smashing Magazine write an article on it? Where is this missed opportunity going? Answer: Bad reviews. Joomla gets many, many bad reviews by users partly because it won?t listen to its users (and partly because of poor documentation). If the users like you, so will the developers (both GPL and for profit) which Joomla needs. They will follow the users.

But for some reason Joomla seems to think it?s the other way around, which I guess is why they want to keep focusing on the framework. It seems to me, there are far more non-developers interested in Joomla as a CMS and I don?t see how creating yet another barebones PHP framework is going help the world anywhere near as much (maybe a good topic for a blog post?)

But I?m still optimistic and hope you see this as constructive criticism. Happy New Year Everyone!

Some very good insight here.

I would propose another position: Public Relations

I admit I do not know all the forces behind this decision and maybe that is the point. There are many non technical site owners that do not know the detail of these decisions, they only see the results which appears to be the removal of extensions, with no indication of where information can be found in the future. The announcement only addresses developers with no mention of how this will effect the end user.

They see the announcement that says all Joomla 1.0 and commercial extensions are being removed. They may think wait I run a joomla 1.0 site and have a couple of commercial extensions where will I go to find new improved extensions? I chose the commercial extension developer because the provided better support, will he still remain in business? Is Joomla supportive of his business and services?

I would suggest to Joomla that if you are going to take something away I would suggest providing a new source for that information to address the average site owner concerns.

I did see an announcement of what appears to be more of a commercial services directory. Maybe the commercial extensions could be found here. If so, could have been better to announce the creation of a commercial services directory and then the removal of the commercial extensions from the JED.

Any way I think Joomla could assuage many end user concerns by letting people know that extensions are being removed from the JED but plans are in the works for a separate directory or system where this information will be located.

With all of these continued changes it seems to me that Joomla is breaking the last of its vision statements: A project dedicated to maintaining the trust of its users.

I am sure it will all work out but Joomla's stance on commercial extensions seems unsettled right now.

Steven - only GPL extensions will be listed on JED - that can include commercial GPL extensions (ex. NinjaForge, Phil Taylor, JXTended.)

+++

Now, Steven, excellent point on vision statement. We forget that users get "caught in the middle" of these things and we often do not address their concerns. Imagine how they feel watching these technical and emotional discussions. It's confusing, at best, and likely alarming.

I've been back to reading Karl Fogel's "Producing OSS" and specifically chapters on communications. It's online - please take time to read it and reread it, if you want to be involved in free software projects - http://producingoss.com/

I appreciate Andrew's call for comments *before* a decision is made/code is written on the proposed services directory. That is the type of shared decision making that builds community. Take time to read and provide comments using the email address he recommended. http://tinyurl.com/callfr

Also - a few core team/OSM members are active on Twitter and I recommend following them:

Andrew (core) - http://twitter.com/mamboblue
Anthony (core) - http://twitter.com/ircmaxell
Wilco (OSM) - http://twitter.com/willebil
Mitch Pirtle (comm team, j! founder) - http://twitter.com/mitchitized

Lastly, going to keep saying this -

The Joomla! project can do a better job of involving the community in understanding what the issues are and the Joomla! project can work harder to find ways to engage the broader community in decision making. But, we have to join in. No more "they" thing. It's time to talk about "us." If there is something wrong with Joomla!, then, it's our problem because shared leadership includes shared responsibility, and shared responsibility means we get thousands, not a dozen, or so, who's job it is to make Joomla! better.

I'm not Core/OSM. I'm not always happy with their processes or choices. But, I show up to "vote" with my contributions and involvement. That's how it works. If you need help getting involved - email a core team member or talk to Steve or talk to me. You are welcome and encouraged to join in.

Now, Steven, excellent point on vision statement. We forget that users get "caught in the middle" of these things and we often do not address their concerns. Imagine how they feel watching these technical and emotional discussions. It's confusing, at best, and likely alarming.

One thing to try to remember is and community has its ups and downs, attractive or sometimes ugly. Not something to get scared of...it's the nature of being a community. A proprietary company doesn't have a community in a real sense, so you're shielded from these things. Yet even the best commercial companies didn't get where they are by not listening to their user base.

Andrew's move is a nice gesture, but why via email? Why not on the forum where open particpation is possible? If you're scared of your commmunity, you don't want participation. Obviously there are many views and you can't please everyone, but no one said you had to. All it takes is a little patience and a little give and take. Only then will we be an "us".

Amy, if you or anyone sees my words like mine as being unproductive, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not one to beat at a dead horse so don't worry, I'll go away. I was just here checking him for signs of life ;)

I love what Drupal is doing.

People might be a little bit surprised to learn how Drupal manages these types of "democratic" processes. It's not a situation where everyone who uses Drupal gets to vote on what volunteers do.

This is community building at it's finest - where a carefully selected list of "authenticated" contributors is being grown over time. Leadership and authority is being transferred to this group as it grows.

It will take a few years before that process really takes hold but I think it's working for Drupal and I think it's the way to go. Those who are part of the decision making process are the rock carrying contributors. They comply willingly with the community licensing and trademark rules and they promote those principles with others.

I think it would be an excellent idea for Joomla! to look closely at this model and begin sharing leadership increasingly with others who share our community values and have contributed to the Joomla!'s project.