Local Joomla Installations Are Not Worth The Effort

I totally agree. The only time I've ever used a local Joomla install was when I was presenting at a conference and expecting poor/bad/non-existent internet access.

I have always had my Joomla students register for hosting, a domain name, and install Joomla there. It makes grading easier for me (I don't have to visit their individual computers to grade), plus they'll eventually have to get hosting and a domain name anyway.

I also emphasize the importance of collaboration when building a website. At a minimum, it's you and the client. You could also involve a bunch of others in the process (a team on the client's side, a graphic designer, a project manager, a content writer, an extension developer, and much more). Local installations don't really foster collaboration.

Jen

I think it depends, to some extent, on the host. Back in the dark ages when I didn't know any better and used GoDaddy hosting, it took me forever to get anything done. Once I learned to setup a local environment with XAMPP, my productivity increased significantly and opened the door to more learning. Also, there may be reasons for not wanting to be logged in to view the front end while you're developing.

For beginners, I agree. For me, it's totally worth it. It saves me a lot of time over having to upload files to the server every time I want to add something.

It would be nice if there were something like a Joomla Sandbox where beginners could log in and play around with super administrator without having to learn how to install Joomla.

I agree. Local installs just present problems for casual users. In contrast, local installs are absolutely key for Joomla! template/extension developers and creating Joomla! training/tutorials.

This kinda goes along with a bigger problem: Joomla is almost too easy to install whether it's locally or a 1-click install on a server. Most casual users that have a 1-click install have no idea how/why to keep Joomla! and 3rd party extensions updated. This is why hosted/maintained services like SimplWeb are great (yes that's a free spot for Barrie ). Casual users just aren't responsible/knowledgeable enough to maintain a Joomla! installation.

Of course on the other side of this coin is the fact the the 1-click install is probably one of the main reasons for Joomla's popularity...

I agree with you that it makes more sense to develop on a live server, especially the one that you plan on hosting the Joomla! site with. This is not always an option for the beginner though.

Much of the content on my website is about developing Joomla! on your Macintosh computer using MAMP. Many of the people that come to my forum are using MAMP for localmachine development. Someone has to provide help to this group of people. While there are some issues related to developing Joomla! using MAMP they are really no harder to master than anything else when you have experienced people answering the questions when you are stumped. The biggest problems I come across for people using Joomla! for the first time are not MAMP issues, but they are related to them trying to relate using a CMS like Joomla! to their Dreamweaver or other system that they were using. It's hard for people to drop what they know and simply learn it anew when it comes to Joomla!

So if you have the luxury of using a live server for development or experimentation with Joomla! then that is the way to go. If you can't, for whatever reason, then there is no better way than to use MAMP on your Macintosh computer. I can't vouch for XAMPP since I am a Mac user.

I must have 20 Joomla! sites in the htdocs folder of MAMP on my computer. Lots of things get tested there before I commit it online. MAMP's not perfect, but the creators of MAMP have made a wonderful tool that probably account for many Joomla! users first experience with the best website software available - Joomla! of course!

Depends how fast your internet connection is

I agree and disagree.

Developing on a localhost is definitely the easiest thing to do, if you have a localhost, but when you don't then the instructions for setting one up can be very daunting.

Like you I've been concerned that many "beginners" books for joomla often scare the user away with a big introduction to xampp before they get to anything about joomla.

I strongly suspect that most "beginners" will be doing their first install on a hosted webserver and all the talk about xammp etc is scary and off putting. Far better to put this information in an appendix, as my favourite "joomla beginners" book does.

It's also a bit galling that I'm yet to read a book that advocates using localhost and includes instructions how to move that local site to a live site.

I agree to some extent. If you have a constant Internet connection (at home or at work) then the way you tell is the best. On the other hand not all users can access Internet 24/7, thus they will still need a local installation for development/testing.

Well since the discussion is about beginners I have to agree also.

It took me some time before I jumped into the localhost environment and what mainly prompted that was the less than average chance a potential client had wireless configured. Even worse they fire up their own pc and they are running old versions of IE.

I have been using WAMP for some time with great success and to be able to have a test site live in a matter of seconds even when I'm sitting in some out of the way place is a big bonus.

With the myriad of server configs out there these days I can see how pointing beginners to a localhost set up might be the best way to go but as they mostly I would think are new to the process and the related jargon, a first time online setup would still be a better way to teach them the basics.

At least with that they get the tutorial and the 'enrichment' of learning all about shared server hosting bundled with it by default.

Cheers

I would definitely recommend paying the 4 bucks a month for a test site - this was a couple iterations ago but joomlapacking site over was a directory permission pain in butt on wamp and xamp for me - but a breeze within live server environment. I think it's important for new admins to feel the joy of joomla packing up and unpacking a site, it really gives you that mad rush of 'what's possible' with joomla site

You have to learn to walk before you learn to run

Using packages like XAMPP, MAMP or Bitnami's packages is not such a big deal for someone who's getting into web development. The problems they'll face later on with permissions or other common remote server issues are far more daunting than installing XAMPP in 2 mins on your PC (Mac is faster, hehe!)...

I have to agree. I had already decided on which host I was going to. E-noise are one of many hosts that allow a single click install from their switchboard.

I ended up paying my hosting fee more in frustration because I was struggling to get xampp to run on my laptop. Even now I keep a dedicated linux server in the house to run my sandbox site rather than use a local host.

I would recommend that beginners use an ubunu server and an old pc or laptop. A lamp server can be installed in 20 minutes, with out much knowledge. A guide would be helpfull for the rest... and no more complicated than using Xampp IMHO

I tend to disagree...
I had choosen to do my first steps into the world of Joomla using xampp on my local PC and then started to build commercial websites while learning how the whole system works. Two years later I'm still convinced that making all the mistakes localhost first and learn from them is much safer and is a good protection for novices against all sorts of trouble they can run into, when they publish a life website that actually is 'experimental' and 'work in progress' without a good understanding of what is going on. (For example when joomla beginners are comming from using MS-Frontpage, NetObjects, or similar HTML editors, like I did).

There are plenty of Joomla websites online, presenting the vistor the look and feel of an (unprofessional) novice webmaster's work.

If your website is just a simple personal blog...who cares about an unprofessional setup of the site...

I completely agree that for new end users, you should not ever talk about a localhost copy. Many times we do not even give them the admin login, we just setup front end access.

Our new developers are different issue. We include many types of installation as part of their intro training.

I understand the point, but disagree. The problem is if using XAMPP to get started is too difficult, the individual should likely go with a hosted service, like WordPress.com.

Using a hosted environment without knowing about security and backups, etc., probably isn't something we should encourage.

It is also important to teach beginners how important it is to try things out on a development platform and upload acceptable changes. To me, that's a really important aspect to entry level training.

It can be heartbreaking to stumble on those forum threads where safe approaches were not followed and there are no backups.

Totally agree. Most likely most users install with Fantastico or other one click systems and there is no reason they ever need to do a local install. For advanced beginners it makes a lot more sense to do a second site in a folder on the same environment. If you're developing or designing a new template for a production site of course it's a different story.

I've never understood why anyone would put making a local install in beginner docs. It should be at the end or maybe in the middle of a beginner book, after you have your site set up and public, you understand what a database is, and how templates work and so on, and then you start wanting to make changes that you test before making public.

In the context of new users...I agree that it can be a little difficult. What would be the solution? Maybe teach users how to install joomla in a sub-directory on their site and run tests from there?

For technical users it's invaluable. I use local installs every day for testing, building extensions, etc.

I think that there are good reasons for all three methods of getting Joomla! up and running.

1. If you are developing a corporate site and following strict software development protocols, then install WAMP or XAMPP as your local site and move to the testing site and then subversion and the IT department takes it live. I personally hate this because Joomla is modular and changes need to be made live when content is involved.

2. I create a sub-domain for testing on my host and build there so that I'm not messed up with permissions when moving to the root to go live. This way I can follow Amy's backup and security protocols while building the site and ensure that I have Joomlapack installed and Joomlainstaller installed to do updates. I also can manage the updating of extensions.

3. Fantastico is something I tell friends who are dabbling with Joomla! to use -- yet I've recently stopped this because they inevitably come back to me with errors due to dropped files and incomplete installs, plus don't understand what they have or how to find things within the 6,000 or so files that make up Joomla!. Much better to show them how to upload and install Joomla so they understand the database side of the equation as well as the 1-click.

Having written beginner books for Macs, I always put the installation information in the appendix because it could be overwhelming. Give new users the quick way in so they can see how a program or operating system works. Then add some bells and whistles. When they feel comfortable, then tell them about installation, design, implementation, testing, and going live. You'll get better users.

Local installs have their place and can be used effectively. But I to think they should be avoided in beginner books (and it's pages that can be better spent telling you how to craft web sites). That stuff should be in the "next steps" genre for example if you want to set up a staging site locally and coupled with other business productivity content. That's my take anyway.

I used XAMPP maybe a couple of times, just for fiddling and getting to know the guts of the joomla core, but nowadays it just sits there taking up space and gets no use at all because I prefer to develop live to avoid mainly all the issues you run into trying to config MOD_REWRITE and .htaccess to get your URLs in shape on the live server which is the first thing I like to start working on when I do a new install before I even begin developing content.

I agree with Brian it that I think it deserves it's place in an index of a training book as everyone who uses joomla consistently should at some point learn how to install local once they get to the point where they may want to develop templates or extensions, but I support your sentiments in this post that it should not be the first thing that a Joomla newbie is introduced to.

Scott

XAMPP has been the only real stumbling block with my students at the end of the course. Particularly now with Joomla! 1.5.14 and the new version of XAMPP which means that they have to go get an older version. All through the course they find out how easy Joomla! is and then these beginners hit a brick wall. I feel it is much better to educate them to find a suitably configured host for Joomla! and use one of the usually two databases available to develop and the other for their live site.

Of course if they go on to be serious developers they might need localhost but at the beginning we surely want to show them how easy Joomla! is, in the right hosting environment, rather than muddying the initially clear waters with the perceived complexity of something like XAMPP?

Hils (I agree!)

Keyword: Beginners
I really think that the average beginner is going to rip their hair out setting up the local server then having to install Joomla. Web hosting with Fantastico is about the cost of a latte and well worth the reduced aggravation. Great post Steve.

With all due respect, we shouldn't simply bash the notion of local installations. I twitted earlier I would provide examples, so here they are.

Ask many of my copatriots, they have PSTN, ISDN and 1Mbps ADSL to begin with. Have you ever uploaded a bare Joomla! installation over PSTN? I have, it's enough to put you off and encourage you to use FrontPage.

Then again, would you prefer a newbie testing out stuff on a live server and submitting their site to Google before they can even learn how "web security" is spelt?

Last, but not least, reponsiveness of a site hosted on the fastest live server is nowhere near close to the responsiveness of a local installation in, say, Uniform Server. I don't know why those books consume 50 pages to explain XAMPP and Wampserver when Uniform Server is extract, run, done. Screwed up? Erase folder, repeat. Hardly 1 page of instructions. Want to transfer your site online when done? JoomlaPack + Kickstart can do that and they'll work out of the box 95% of the time.

Maybe it's not local installs we should bash, but authors of "Getting Started" books spending way too much energy on peripheral subjects instead of the core matter of their books. From this point of view, I tottaly agree with you. But stating "Local Joomla! installations are not worth the effort" is an overstatement, to say the least.

My $0.02

I will second Barrie and Fotis.

First it depends on your connection speed. I happen to be in a country where the connection is not stable and not fast. Developing on a live server is way too slow. It just take too much time between each action/changes you make.

Using local install whether with MAMP or WAMP or what ever, makes you go through a learning process that will be inevitable to go through during your "web life". Most of the issues you may have using these, will serve you eventually on online server.

And they are still fairly easy to use.

I think that the knowledge and experienced gained setting up and configuring a localhost is an absolute must for anyone that is remotely serious about choosing a career as a web developer/webmaster.

Having a sandbox, a dev environment, a QA environment, and a live environment are standard fare in the business world and teaching aspiring keyboard jockeys best practices and helping them to understand that web development goes way beyond a one click install would benefit everyone.

All too often I am called upon to fix business owner's websites that were poorly put together by individuals with a slick online storefront but lackluster skill set.

If a n00b cannot figure out how to run a Joomla install locally and then export it to a live site, then they have no business being in the industry.
Harsh words, but there is nothing complex about it. Whats that n00b gonna do when his/her site gets compromised or some permissions need changed?
If a local install blows your mind, it's time to spend some cash and hire somebody cause it's going to be a long and bumpy road for you.

Aren't there major security concerns with local installs as well as hosted installs?

In any event; designers (css), developers (php) and sysadmins (chmod, ssh) are all separate skill-sets. While all of them are inherently a part of Joomla, you'll find frustration anytime one attempts another.

A Joomla beginner book is probably going to have all of these at some level but if 50 pages is too challenging, someone in the project team should have recognized it & found another way. Possibly team up with a hosting company that gives a free 6 month account when you buy the book.

One click installs and a real management environment where I can do Mass Upgrades reduces maintenance to a minimum.

I can go into my billing system and provision a new virtual server with Joomla! in a minute.

For the same reason I pay a hosting company rather than have my own server in a closet, I'd suggest beginners go with a hosted instance.

Ken

Hi, I'm a real novice and was always afraid of doing a local install for all the reasons mentioned. However, I want to make major changes to my site and don't want to do it 'live' and experiment that way, and I want to be able to work on my site offline. So I bit the bullet, got out my joomla book and installed wamp... and it was simple! No problem at all! I was really surprised everything worked as well as it did.

But of course there is always some issue, I thought the simple part of the process would be downloading a copy of the current site and uploading the new files but I can't get Joomlapack to work, or another extension I tried so I have to work around that.

just my tuppence worth
David

i really liked the idea of the local server. Because i don`t have internet acces all the time. Now i can work on the local site everywhere.

My big question is (it should be easy but i can`t find a clear answer so far, so please help me out!)
How can I syncronize my local site on my LAMP server with the one on the hosting server.

After my site is already on the webserver, but i continue making changes on my local server. Is there a way to just opload the changes to the webserver?